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Matt George (00:00):
Today's episode of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast on the Unsettled Media Podcast Network is
brought to you by Sensory Friendly Solutions. Discover sensory friendly solutions for daily life. To learn
more, head to sensoryfriendly.net.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Unsettled.
Matt George (00:24):
Hello, listeners. Welcome back to the podcast, welcome to episode five of the Sensory Friendly Solutions
Podcast. Number five, this is the half way mark of our first season together. Our guest today is Carol
Stock Kranowitz. As a music, movement and drama teacher for 25 years, Carol observed many out of
sync preschoolers. To help them become more competent in their work and play, she began to study
sensory processing and sensory integration theory, SI theory. She learned to help identify her young
students' needs and to steer them into early intervention. In writings and workshops, she explains to
parents, educators and other early childhood professionals how sensory issues play out and provides fun
and functional techniques for addressing them at home and school. She's best known for her book, The
Out-of-Sync Child, which has sold over one million copies. And her subsequent series, the In-Sync Child.
We give you Carol Stock Kranowitz for episode five of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast. Carol,
welcome so much to the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast. This is episode five of the podcast and we
feel very fortunate to have the opportunity to speak to you.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (01:55):
Thank you. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here, Matt.
Matt George (01:59):
Carol, for those who aren't familiar with your work and I'm sure many of our readers and listeners will
be, can you explain in a nutshell what you do?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (02:11):
Yes. What I do right now is I write and I speak about sensory processing disorder and that's something I
learned about over the years as a preschool teacher, at a school that was for typically developing
children as well as children with developmental delays and other special needs. And I learned from the
start that the children with the braces and the wheelchairs and the hearing aids were great kids to be
teaching, they were eager to learn, they were in the thick of things. It was the other children who didn't
seem to be enjoying their occupation of childhood that puzzled me. They had no discernible disabilities
and yet, they would stand back from the finger paint or the mud pies. Or they would tip over the bin of
toys and take off their shoes and socks and walk through the Legos or they would behave in very
unusual ways. And those were the kids that interested me and I learned about sensory processing
challenges. And that's what I figured other teachers and parents needed to know about too.
Matt George (03:50):
I can't wait to dig into your career arc and how you came about some of the ideas that you've been
publishing, you're quite prolific. But I wanted to introduce, when I was reading your bio I had a really
fascinating conversation with an occupational therapist who lives with autism in California, named Bill
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Wong. And Bill gave a really fascinating TED talk, it's had I think 22,000 something views already and he
talks about his early life. And in the beginning, Bill had said that folks were reluctant to diagnose him
with autism because of his high IQ all through school. But then he started to learn through his
education, about how autistic children learn and how they play and the differences that you're
mentioning. And Bill said, "I really see myself in these kids, this was my experience." And then he
pursued a deeper dive into his neurodiversity and was eventually, as an adult, diagnosed with autism. So
it's fascinating that there are these patterns that you can see, even in youth and at things like play.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (05:00):
Definitely and the patterns are exactly what I hope that parents and teachers will begin to observe. I
hope that people will learn how to be detectives and put on their sensory spectacles and look for those
patterns. Would you like me to talk about those now, Matt?
Matt George (05:26):
Carol, with your permission, can we first take a quick step back?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (05:30):
Sure.
Matt George (05:30):
Before we really get into the good stuff and let's just do a check in with the current moment. I've asked
our guests to reflect on the current moment. I release a stat every once in a while, that says as of June
2020, sensory overload was being searched over 40,000 times a month on Google. And that might not
seem like a lot as a number but what really got us paying attention was it was an increase of 50% on the
past year, according to Google Trends. And so I'm wondering, what's the current moment teaching us
about sensory overload and what has been your experience of the current moment, especially being in
America?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (06:17):
Yes, I'm no longer in the fray. I'm retired now, so I know about this anecdotally but my understanding is
that there is extreme heightened anxiety among children. What parents are complaining about is acting
out and these are regulated kids, typically developing kids who are behaving erratically. I know from one
experience I had in the spring, in April of 2020, I was helping out through a medium like Squadcast, to
help an occupational therapist in Denver, working with a bunch of preschoolers. And we were trying to
entertain them with games and movement experiences and songs. And these children, it was just very
difficult for them to attend to a two dimensional screen, even though kids have more experience than
we want with computer screens.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (07:46):
Even though they had experience with it, what they don't have is the real teacher and the proximity of
their classmates. So everything that is under the surface is exposed now, all of the propensities a little
body might have to be dysregulated. It's all coming out now. So because I'm not in the classroom, I can't
be so fact based from my own experience but I see it through other people's eyes, I hear about it, as this
dissolution of how children... Their ability to attend and to be self-regulating is being destroyed by this
COVID.
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Matt George (09:06):
I love what you say about being exposed in some way, it's all coming to the surface now and isn't this
true of so many different things in this moment? We're starting to understand the frailty of some of the
things that we've built and COVID has exposed that within us. And like you say, you talk about e-learning
and learning online, I really feel for families right now because like you say, this is a challenging period. I
was in one of our coastal towns and rural high speed internet access is a problem in my region. And I
was in a cafe doing work as I typically do, as an internet based entrepreneur and I saw a mother and
daughter scrambling to get connected to the internet on the cafe, just a few minutes before classes
would start. Mom was clearly late for something, whether it was work or otherwise and being that they
were in the cafe, means that high speed internet access was either too expensive or not available for
this family. And you could see that it was traumatic for both, they were frustrated with each other. Mom
was flustered because she wasn't used to the tech. I just really have a heart for families right now and
for people experiencing sensory overload.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (10:27):
Oh yes, I'm so sympathetic too.
Matt George (10:32):
Yeah and Carol, what is it do you think we're experiencing in this moment? And I don't intend for you to
speak as an expert but I love hearing the reflections that people are considering in this moment because
we're all reflecting together. Do we have this heightened sense of anxiety and awareness because we're
almost too tuned in? We're being bombarded with the news, we're being bombarded with media. What
are we all going through right now as a collective?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (11:04):
Yeah, that's definitely part of it. We are bombarded and of course, children and dogs will pick up on the
anxiety of their owners. Little babies will sense that as well as three year olds and eight year olds. So
we're on overload in that way, that our sensory system is seeing and hearing too much news. But there's
another thing, that is the absence of the stimuli that we need. So while we're getting too much of what
we don't need and can't process and can't use, with the social isolation, being indoors much more than
ever is really bad for us because nature has designed us to move and we're supposed to be outside.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (12:16):
If you think, it's been a very short time, it's been a blink of the eye in evolutionary terms, for people to
be indoors and have heat and shelter and food easily provided. We're supposed to be out there looking
for it, building it, collecting it, cooking it. And so sitting is not what we're designed to do. So even more
sitting these days has to be detrimental to the developing child. And the social part of it, I think, is the
very worst. My husband and I have tried to play a rummy card game with friends online and it works but
it's nowhere close to being at a table with your friends, holding a fistful of cards. Multiply that a million
times toward snack time and circle time and playground time and story time and all that. All of those
opportunities are being deprived of our children.
Matt George (13:34):
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Right, right. You mentioned movement being such a critical aspect of the development of a child and I
know, we're all feeling this. We're all feeling this in our lower backs, in our shoulders, of sitting all day
and staring at a screen. And I do agree with you, I think you lose something, don't we?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (13:51):
Yes, definitely.
Matt George (13:54):
Right. Carol, do you mind very quickly tracing your career arc for us? I'm so interested in how you found
yourself where you are right now. I know you mentioned you've stepped away from the fray and you're
focusing on things like writing at this point in your life and we'll get to your bestselling books. But how
did you end up here? What peaked your interest in this field and when did you start running with it?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (14:21):
I guess I'm really an odd duck, Matt.
Matt George (14:26):
Likewise.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (14:29):
My interest in teaching was very minimal, I wanted to be a writer and was an English major at college.
And got married, had two little boys who are typically developing people and they went to a wonderful
nursery school in the neighborhood. And one day, I said to the director, "Do you need a movement
teacher?" Because at the time, I was doing a lot of dancing. And she said, "Yes, why don't you come and
teach?" And I said, "Gosh, great but I'm not a teacher, I don't have any education in education." And she
said, "Oh, that's okay. You'll learn on the job." So it was an independent school and there were no
requirements at that time, this was in the '70s. So I started teaching and immediately began to notice
these kids who were not in sync with the other children. They would back away from the activities that
the other kids enjoyed. Their feet never left the ground or on the other hand, maybe their feet were
always off the ground. Maybe they were constantly swinging and constantly climbing on bookcases and
jungle gyms. And they were not doing the typical things that other preschoolers were doing.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (16:05):
So for 10 years, I asked questions, why won't that kid ever use glue or finger paint? Why does that kid
have his hands over his ears every time I strum the guitar? And I knew I wasn't great at playing the guitar
but you wouldn't typically run out the door when I strummed. And there were some kids who would
complain bitterly from my playing the guitar. Well, the other teachers, the experienced ones, didn't have
answers for me. And at this time, ADD and ADHD were just beginning to come on the horizon. So we
were trying to figure out, well, do these children have attentional problems? But no, sometimes they
would not pay attention but other times they were deeply involved in something that interested them
very much. ADD did not fit. I'm coming to the end of this little story.
Matt George (17:24):
It's great.
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Carol Stock Kranowitz (17:25):
10 years after I started teaching, it was in the mid '80s, a pediatric occupational therapist volunteered to
give the teachers at this preschool a workshop on sensory processing disorder. And in those days, it was
called sensory integration dysfunction and we didn't know what that was but we trusted her. So she
came and she gave this 90 minute workshop and it blew me away. It was totally answering my questions
and so I learned about the three main sensory systems that very young children build all their future
learning and behavior on. And one of those senses, I knew about. The tactile or touch system and that
explained kids who would pull away from messy play or fine motor activities that required them to use
their hands. Or these were picky eaters who didn't want certain textures or temperatures of food in
their mouths.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (18:46):
I just did the tactile system and this was my introduction to the vestibular system, receptors are in our
inner ear and the vestibular system tells us where our head is in relation to the surface of the Earth. And
the inner ear tells us how fast we're moving and whether we're falling and are we going up or down?
Are we standing up? Are we lying down. All of that are messages coming from the vestibular sense. And
the third important sense is the proprioceptive sense, that's the sense of our muscles and joints, telling
us what our body position is. Are we flexing or stretching? Are we lifting something heavy or light? Are
we reaching accurately for the apple juice picture or are we knocking it over? Are we pulling a hairbrush
through our hair? Are we pulling the seatbelt out from the side of the car accurately? Those are
functions that we can perform with a good proprioceptive sense.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (20:10):
So I learned these three senses are very important and of course, I was so excited and became this
therapist's disciple and I said, "Give me stuff to read." And she said, "There isn't anything to read." So
another decade went by and I learned what I could from studying occupational therapist's evaluations of
young children with the children's names blacked out. And I learned about kids who had sensory
challenges and it was so hard to read it and to understand it and so I became driven to write something
that people like me could understand. And that's the projectory of my career. So in 1998, I was able to
find a publisher and The Out-of-Sync Child was published in 1998 and it has sold more than a million
copies and it's been translated into, gosh, I think it's 14 languages now. The most recent one was
Spanish.
Matt George (21:32):
Excellent.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (21:34):
And I'm very, very proud to have introduced this topic worldwide because about 16% of people
everywhere, of all ages, have sensory issues that really, really interfere with their functioning in daily life
and my book has helped.
Matt George (21:59):
I love this idea that you wrote something that filled a gap in the market, that you personally were
interested in filling for your own growth. And I think lots of those projects end up being best sellers
because they resonate with so many. When we now realize that okay, yes, there should be material that
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can be consumed by anybody, whether neurotypical or otherwise, to understand some of these issues
and these statistics. 16% of people anywhere dealing with sensory issues. That's a heck of a lot of people
and so a resource like this coming out, I think you're right, pays dividends for many. And if I may read
one of the blurbs you received from The New York Times. "The Out-of-Sync Child has become the
parents' bible to sensory processing disorder." Are you hearing from a lot of parents that are consuming
this material and it really helping them in their family growth?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (22:59):
Oh yes, constantly. And it's not just the 16% who are people whose sensory issues are significant enough
to warrant therapy but it's many, many more people. It's like you and me, Matt, who occasionally have
some sensory overload or sensory underload. I think my book explains how the neurological system
works in layman's terms and then we can see, oh, that's why I don't want to go on the rollercoaster.
Because my vestibular system says, that kind of up and down, rapid movement through a space is
making my vestibular system really, really uncomfortable. So yeah, I think the book helps people
understand a lot of our everyday sensory processing. And we all are out of sync from time to time, think
particularly when you've had the flu or when you've been on a very rocky boat or a very rapid elevator
in a very tall building and you feel a little nauseated by that perhaps. Or I have some tactile issues, I
really don't like my hands to get gooky. So I don't bake bread, I don't garden. It just makes me very
uncomfortable to get my hands all gooky like that. Does that mean that I have sensory processing
disorder? No, I don't because I can simply arrange my life so I don't bake bread and garden.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (25:03):
If however, those were the only occupations open to me, bread baking and gardening and I had this
sensory dysfunction, I'd be hard pressed to earn a living. So we all have some sensory stuff but it doesn't
usually interfere with how we get along in life. So I think my book has helped the parents, so many. I
can't tell you how many parents have said, "This book explains my child and I also see how it explains
myself." Because a question is, how do sensory issues emerge? Well, they're either hereditary, so we
either get it from our parents or our grandparents or it's environmental. Well, in babies, babies who are
premature often have sensory issues and they spend weeks perhaps, in the neonatal intensive care unit,
which is not natural. They're not getting enough skin contact at Mommy's breast. They're not being
cuddled and held and lifted and moved from the crib, to the carriage, to the backpack. They're wired
and they're on their backs and they're helpless. So many of those babies will develop sensory issues as a
result of early hospitalization.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (27:03):
Or kids who are institutionalized. Say they come out right but they're put into orphanages at an early
age and this is true of many children who's early years are spent in Eastern European orphanages, where
they're in crowded conditions without a lot of interaction with grown ups. So the neurological system is
not given the opportunity to develop naturally and those children will have sensory issues too. So it's
either hereditary or environmental or sometimes, we just don't know. Sometimes it just happens and
there's no one person or no one thing that can be thought of as the source, sometimes it just happens.
Matt George (28:04):
Yeah and I think there's something also too about naming it and I believe that is probably a fundamental
reason why your book has resonated so widely. This year I read Gabor Maté's When the Body Says No.
And the idea that if you don't have the tools, whether it's because you don't understand the current
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moment or you've been thrust into the current moment and like you say, we're so new in this modern
era, that if you don't have the tools to recognize mentally when your body's saying no, your body will
say it for you. And that comes in the form of an illness or hitting a wall of some kind. Just the pleasure of
reading Gabor's book and being able to name things now, was so helpful and I would imagine that some
readers have given you similar feedback.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (28:52):
Yes, that's definitely right and my book, I'm happy to say, has reprieved parents from their own self
blame because imagine you have a baby and you love this baby and this baby has tactile issues which
mean the baby can't process being touched. So the baby doesn't know that when Mommy picks baby
up, that's a loving caress. The receptors in the baby's skin are saying whoa, whoa, wait a minute, what is
this? This might be hostile, I must get away. So the neurological system, it's like a traffic jam in the brain.
Things are not running smoothly, tactile messages come in, the brain is not able to say this one's a good
one, this caress is a good one. That caress is invasive and not a caress at all, that's harmful. The little
baby can't make that distinction and so the child arches his back and pulls away and retracts from
Mommy's loving attention. And then the mother thinks, I've done something wrong and my baby hates
me. And so to find out that Mom is doing everything right and it's the baby's system that is undeveloped
and needs nurturing in a certain way, that is so relaxing and that's what I hear so often. "You have made
me realize I am not a bad parent, Carol."
Matt George (31:01):
Powerful.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (31:02):
And I hear that so often, it makes me want to weep.
Matt George (31:05):
Powerful.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (31:06):
Yeah.
Matt George (31:06):
When you were doing the research process for this book, I imagine it was research intensive, was there
something you took away from that research that really blew your hair back? As you're saying, that 16%
of humans in general deal with some kind of sensory issue. Those are the kinds of stats that blow my
hair back. Bill Wong in episode four of the podcast, saying that 35% of autistic adults are unemployed in
America, one issue he's really tackling. That blew my hair back. When you're doing the research process
for the book, was there a big takeaway throughout the course of that process or was it a more holistic
experience of saying wow, this really needs to be spoken to.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (31:51):
I think it was both. I think it was finding out how many children have this problem. It was learning that
it's not discrete, I think that was a big one, Matt, now that I think back. When I wrote the book, I thought
I was writing about sensory processing issues and thinking about it as a discrete issue like chicken pox,
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like some people have sensory processing issues. I found out very soon after the book was published
that sensory issues overlap with every other condition and I will say every other condition. So parents
with children with Down syndrome, for instance. Or with cerebral palsy or with spina bifida or any kind
of other issue, would say to me, "My child also has sensory issues and your book helped me understand
that part."
Carol Stock Kranowitz (33:06):
So that blew my hair back. My expression is, it knocked my socks off but I like yours, it blew my hair
back, that's right. So I was thinking I was going to be writing this book for just a group of parents and
teachers who were dealing with kids with sensory processing disorder. I didn't realize I would also be
contributing to the understanding of parents with all kinds of other disorders as well. And then the
autism aspect of it, I did a little research on autism when I was writing my book and I did not understand
the... It's not just overlap, it's entwinement of those two disorders. Everybody with autism has sensory
processing problems. Not everybody with sensory issues has autism, of course. But that was a blow your
hair back understanding, when I understood that. So I'm uncomfortable when people say, "Carol is an
expert on autism." I am not, I am not. I know a little bit about autism, I know a lot about sensory
processing disorder. But I do know that there is that very strong connection. If you're autistic, you have
sensory issues for sure.
Matt George (34:49):
Right and then if I'm getting the timeline correct, the In-Sync Child comes later.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (34:57):
Yes, yes. So I have a friend who I met 40 years ago. I was teaching at this wonderful school, it's called St.
Columba's Nursery School in Washington D.C. Columba was an obscure Scottish saint and the church is
named after him. So I was teaching at the preschool there and learning about these out of sync kids,
what made them tick or not tick. And working with the occupational therapist who I mentioned before,
came to our school and was teaching the teachers about sensory issues and she was a consultant for us
when we had kids who we had questions about them. So I was working with the therapist and I
considered myself an OT wannabe. I just loved the whole learning what I did about occupational
therapy.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (36:17):
Okay and at that time, this therapist and I were screening children for sensory issues and if the kids had
evident sensory problems, we would suggest that they go to get occupational therapy. If they had what
we considered soft issues, not so crystal clear, we would send them to Joye Newman. Joye Newman is
perceptual motor therapist and she had a program running here in the Washington area called Kids
Moving Company. So kids who had difficulties with motor planning or had rocky motor coordination,
that kind of kid would go to Joye and she would fix them up. So Joye and I were not occupational
therapists, we were on the fringe and we got friendly and we had a lot of kids in common because I
would send kids to her.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (37:34):
Anyway, our friendship developed and then about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, we were taking a walk
one day and talking and we decided we needed to write a book about in sync children because we
wanted to get away from the negative. That was one thing, we wanted to get off the electric circuit and
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the book shelf that was devoted to children with special needs. And what we wanted to do was get into
the world of the child not yet identified with any needs but who we were worried about. And so we had
been worried about the kids who spend too much time with their computers and their two dimensional
worlds. And so we decided to put our heads together and start appealing to parents of typical children,
to say get your kids moving, get your kids outdoors. Get your kids doing heavy work activity and pushing
and pulling and moving their bodies and relating to their environment, going through obstacle courses
and looking for challenges. So we wrote the book called Growing... Excuse me, Growing an In‑Sync Child.
And then out of that emerged a collection of activity cards, The In-Sync Activity Cards. And the cards are
also in a book form and now, hot off the press, so to speak, we have just produced 10 webinars.
Matt George (39:33):
Oh, excellent.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (39:34):
This is our In-Sync Child Program and four of the webinars give an introduction to child development,
sensory processing, visual development and perceptual motor skills. And six of the 10 webinars are each
devoted to a very modest piece of equipment, such as a roll of masking tape or a few paper plates or
pieces of rope. And so six of our webinars are what to do with rope for some in sync activities. And these
10 webinars, we're going to be marketing them through a Canadian group called ECE Formula. ECE
stands for Early Childhood Education Formula and also, they're going to be translated and published into
Greek, French, Italian and Spanish and spread around the Mediterranean world.
Matt George (40:46):
That's really fantastic, Carol.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (40:50):
Thank you.
Matt George (40:51):
When our listeners listen to this, they see the world solutions tacked on to the end of the podcast and
so we want to plug these resources. We want people to be able to engage with the books and now that
we're in this strange world of webinars, where can our listeners do that?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (41:06):
Oh, thank you. The books, I think the easiest thing is to go to Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble and type
in Kranowitz, K-R-A-N-O-W-I-T-Z or Newman, Joye Newman and then the books will pop up. And the
webinars, eceformula.com and actually, I think it's today that the first four webinars are going to go up
there. There have just been a few little pieces that have been needed to get that going and the next six
will be up in another week or so. And in Greece, the website is Upbility, U-P-B-I-L-I-T-Y, Upbility and I
think it's .org. No it isn't, it's .net. Upbility.net. And the materials have not been translated yet, so give
them a month and then go there. So we're really excited and also, our website, insyncchild.com and
we're going to have information there for people too. All of this is just happening right as we speak now,
this is wonderful timing.
Matt George (42:48):
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Well, I'm glad we got you when we did, Carol and I'll make sure that I put live links to all those resources
in our show notes and on our blog, so that our readers and listeners can access this material.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (42:59):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Matt George (43:02):
You're very welcome. You've been very generous with your time but I have one final question.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (43:07):
Sure.
Matt George (43:07):
Every time we wrap up one of these episodes and this has been a great one, the final question is always
about strategy. Everybody has a way to reduce the noise of the current era. Whether it's getting outside
for a walk, whether it's mindfulness, whatever your practice is. Our readers and our listeners will be
curious, Carol, what are your strategies to reduce the noise of the current time?
Carol Stock Kranowitz (43:32):
Oh, well I definitely have a very high movement quota, as do most children and most adults, actually. I
need at least an hour of vigorous activity every day or else you just don't want to talk to me. I'm very
crabby if I don't have my exercise. So I swam, I took muscle conditioning classes at the gym, I took
Pilates exercise classes and then coronavirus happened. So now I just walk and that's the only activity
that I do. It gets me outside, I walk three miles and then I'm okay. And I'll tell you, Matt, if I didn't do
that, I really would be a basket case, I would. I would be a little lump. So I suggest to everybody, even if
they have not been big exercisers. And if they haven't found that that is the solution, I highly
recommend it. You don't have to walk fast, you just have to walk. Because remember, everyone who's
listening, nature intends us to be moving all day long and not sitting. And when we move, we are in
sync.
Matt George (45:08):
That's a great way to end, Carol. The fact that these have become so timeless as strategies, movement,
mindfulness, awareness, it means they're true in some capacity because so many of us feel it so deeply.
So I really appreciate you taking time to be a part of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast and I can't
wait for our listeners to hear this episode.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (45:29):
Thank you, Matt. I am so happy that we've had this chance.
Matt George (45:34):
Likewise, it's been a real pleasure, Carol. Be well, take care of yourself south of the border and I hope we
reconnect soon.
Carol Stock Kranowitz (45:40):
SFS Episode 5 Mix 1 (Completed 10/19/20) Page 10 of 14
Transcript by Rev.com